Jump to content



Toggle %s Hello Guest

Hello!

If this is your first visit, we invite you to register (click here) for full user access. Membership is free but is required in order to post to our forums. Membership entitles you to a discount on Native Watercraft Accessories purchased through the forum host, Get:Outdoors. Please read over guidelines and rules on the use of the forum here (Click Here)


Thank you.
Welcome Guest Messages 6.0.0 © 2018 VirteQ

Photo
- - - - -

Automatic for the people - Native's quest for what you want next


  • Please log in to reply
119 replies to this topic

#1 NOG Admin

NOG Admin

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 4,033 posts

Posted 10 August 2011 - 11:37 AM

Native has a begun a program on facebook, called automatic for the people, a venue for users and fans to voice their desires on what kind of kayak they'd like to see developed. A sit-on-top, hybrid, pedal powered or any mix, the canvas is blank. I'd also like to hear what accessories and or improvements to the current line you'd like to see as well. Be as specific as possible, thanks, Philip

#2 kayak

kayak

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 111 posts

Posted 10 August 2011 - 02:02 PM

Native has a begun a program on facebook, called automatic for the people, a venue for users and fans to voice their desires on what kind of kayak they'd like to see developed. A sit-on-top, hybrid, pedal powered or any mix, the canvas is blank.

I'd also like to hear what accessories and or improvements to the current line you'd like to see as well.

Be as specific as possible, thanks,
Philip


I've said it before, I'll say it again, Propel powered Manta Ray.:mrgreen: As most of you know by know, I am a huuuuuge Propel fanboy, and would love to see a propel drive married to a sleeker faster hull than the Mariner. Fishing benefits aside, I could see where this would be a potent combo as as long distance touring SOT in a 14 foot length. This wouldn't replace the Mariner, just augment it.
  • Ron YakDaddy Gerber likes this

#3 TNtrout

TNtrout

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 10 August 2011 - 03:13 PM

This is one suggestion I have thrown out before as well, but we really need a tandem SOT. Bring over the Deuce Coupe with a Native badge and rod holders in a goove track or go with a full blown Angler package option. I had this conversation with Andy before he left and I ended up using a deuce coupe in my guide service and it has been great!! Again, need a SOT tandem option for those parent/child or two buddies wanting to paddle together and fish canoe style. 14 ft would be ideal instead of the 13 ft deuce coupe. My 2010 Magic 14.5 is still one of my most requested boats when I get clients who are new to paddling and want to go with a friend and fish. Upgrade and bring back the Magic or bring on the Deuce Coupe - both awesome boats!!! Jeff Wilson Clear View Water Sports Nashville, TN Endorsed Guide Service

#4 livelybaits

livelybaits

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,540 posts

Posted 10 August 2011 - 03:17 PM

More of the same, please : ) I'm extremely pleased with all of the Native boats, the accessories and the effort they put toward being an industry leader in kayaks. I'm a fishing guide so I'm not as knowledgable about their touring kayaks. But the basics they have covered and their seeking input from you and from the guide staff that uses their boats is evidence of a company that's not only thriving down in my area, but going to grow. I have shared some ideas I've had directly with them for not only modifications but for new craft. The back-and-forth since then has been excellent. It's a forum scenario with that too. I can debate with the other guides from different areas and we can all get the "why's?" answered that way. That benefits everyone.

#5 boykinsbuddy

boykinsbuddy

    Super Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 1,473 posts

Posted 10 August 2011 - 06:18 PM

I mentioned to Woody last night to slide the Coupe and Deuce both over to Native with a fishing package and the nice Manta Ray seat. That seat should also be in the Red Fish. I really hate the economy is driving the company to downgrade the standard features in the 2012 line..but that is the trend on everything. The good side to this is that they are also dropping the prices. The Redfish is going to be a real winner at $599!!! I love what competition does to the industry. The new fishing boats out there will push future designs. Lively...are you seeing any of the new boats down there coming from these new companies designing strictly a fishing developed boat yet? I know of a couple that came out with the surge in kayak fishing tournaments. For the time being, I think Native is sitting pretty here with the Manta Ray and Ultimate, but they do lack in the river fishing scene. Jackson's Coosa was so well thought out and that is exactly what Woody needs to do designing the Automatic. There is still a place for a Phat Boy boat for river fishing. He needs to call it the Creek Chub! I'd love to be able to stand up in the calm sections of the river. They could have done a few things to the new Ultimate hulls...flatten the pods under the seat area so we are standing on a flat surface instead of a rounded area. It could also stand some more volume in the bow when standing...it sinks pretty bad with a slight weight shift forward. They could get this flaring the bow just above the normal paddling waterline...kind of like the Manta ray does. Running the V all the way down the hull would also add some volume and stiffen the hull at the same time.

#6 livelybaits

livelybaits

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,540 posts

Posted 10 August 2011 - 08:39 PM

I won't publicly give my exact thoughts on the design ideas. Yes I have looked at the boats that have come out. I've watched them in action. "sitting pretty" is a good way of putting it. That's why I said "More of the same, please". While I have my own ideas on the next Native boat, I dig the product line right now. My ideas have to merge with those thoughts from others and then it has to be right with engineering (which I am not). But I think I'm on to something with one of my ideas. I applaud their thinking on the "option" they just came up with in the Ultimate line. I'll say that there is definitely something to allowing more customization anyway. "Build your Ultimate", or not. That bare bones Basic Ultimate I'd use any day of the week. My detailed suggestions I can't share because obviously you may see another company utilizing them. That's simply the industry. I'll tell you that you'll be happy with the process, the ideas and I think it will lead to something different and well liked.

#7 livelybaits

livelybaits

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,540 posts

Posted 10 August 2011 - 09:00 PM

Agree.

A few modifications I'd like to see on future Ultimates:
1) Replace the front thwart tube with a stiff "U-shaped" carbon fiber brace that hugs the inside of the hull, so you can slide heavier items like a cooler back and forth. A cooler with 8 lbs of ice and a few decent size fish in it is a pain to lift up and over the front thwart tube while seated. Would also make it easier to get to stuff in the bow area with a bow skirt installed.
2) Some type of sacrificial/replaceable hull guard for the front and back. I launch from cement ramps fairly often, and no matter how careful I try to be, I am slowly grinding down those spots on the hull.
3) A redesigned rudder assembly that puts the mount on top of the hull, so when the rudder is in the up position the entire assembly is completely out of the way when I back into a mud bank. Then, the rudder mechanism would not get caked with mud. Happens to mine all the time in our tidal salt marshes.
4) Shorter Groove Tracks. They could probably be half the current length for most applications. I only use a small section of the tracks on mine, but I just use mine for a couple of Scotty rod holders.
5) Replace the foam blocks with sealed compartments fore & aft that would serve as sealed storage compartments as well as flotation. Could use water tight marine quick release deck plates to access the interiors.
6) More draining slots to aid in cleaning.


This one posted while I was writing my other reply.

I classify changes differently from "new product development". But I have some things that I personally would consider as changes. Again, we're talking minor cosmetics. But your list contains a few of the things that would be on mine.
Some of mine are variations to yours. Shorter groove tracks. OK. But I was also thinking rear groove tracks for removable Scotty mounts aft.
For drains, I would be fine if they kept the open "slits" but went back to a big ol' hole (bigger than on the original Ultimate) in the bow instead of the stern. I put those in my boats when they come in. No plug. Just an open hole.

#8 boykinsbuddy

boykinsbuddy

    Super Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 1,473 posts

Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:02 PM

"For drains, I would be fine if they kept the open "slits" but went back to a big ol' hole (bigger than on the original Ultimate) in the bow instead of the stern. I put those in my boats when they come in. No plug. Just an open hole."

Just drag the hull upside down a ways down the highway at 65mph and you'll have a nice big drain hole! ;) I can speak from experience!

I've thought about the sealed fore and aft compartments with hatch covers. In the Ultimate, this would require some welding more than likely where the compartment meets the hull. Doable but tricky molding. It would add some more weight to the hull.

Initially Woody talked about the simplified version of the Ultimate but didn't mention any price drops. Thinking about the economy, I figured this would mean a stripped down hull for about the same price, but he says in an interview to Kayak Magazine that the price will drop substantially. He comes with some training from Bill Masters...the original Perception CEO...then picked up a kayak line designed to be basic to sell at an affordable price to the masses. He is smart bringing that concept to Native at times like this. Here is his interview.



#9 livelybaits

livelybaits

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,540 posts

Posted 12 August 2011 - 11:12 AM

Very interesting info came through on the costs: The standard Ultimate will still be available but here are the basic number for the "Ultimate Basic" Ultimate 12 Basic retails for $799, $250 less than standard (vs $1049 for the standard Ultimate, which went up $50) Ultimate 14.5 Solo Basic retails for $899 (vs $1149 for the standard solo 14.5) Ultimate 14.5 Tandem Basic retails for $1099 (vs $1399) A significant price change for the "Basic"

#10 1afishmore

1afishmore

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 43 posts

Posted 07 September 2011 - 08:12 PM

Manta Ray 14: I really like my boat but I'd like to see the foot brace extend another inch or two towards the front of the boat and the groove track extended likewise. The groove track is useless to me as anything on it would interfere with the paddle. If it extended 2-3 more inches, I am sure I'd have stuff mounted to it. For reference, I'm 6'2" and the boat itself is plenty big enough.

#11 dfrnt_suthernguy

dfrnt_suthernguy

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts

Posted 08 September 2011 - 09:41 AM

A re-designed, lighter version of the Magic or similar sit on top with scuppers and the first class seat, designed to have a flat floor area in front of the seat and be stable enough for standing, and also stable enough to have a higher seating position for comfort and ease of standing up and sitting down. Design it with the rear wheel for ease of transport, and possibly a drop skeg for tracking. The Deuce could be easily modified to do this. I had one and it was very stable, and for the factory it would be very easy to modify with a platform designed for standing (ala Versa Board) and a seat base designed for hi or low seating for the first class seat. Then they would just need to add the ability to easily mount/secure accessories, fish bags, etc. Would also be nice to have a Propel version/option. I had a Deuce, but found it too hard/expensive to modify it myself to accomplish all of these things, so purchased a Mariner 10, but would still have preferred the other options for the Deuce or a new version of the Magic with similar features. Another model I would like to see is a Versa Board with more weight capacity. I love that board, but at 6'2", 225lbs, it's a rather wet ride for me even without adding a cooler, etc. A simple modification of more width/length/flotation to add weight capacity, and the same first class seat but with the ability to raise it for a higher seating position (at a height in between the current first class seat and the cooler seat option would be about ideal) would make this perfect for us larger guys or those that just wanted more capacity and a dryer ride.

#12 3kushn

3kushn

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts

Posted 08 September 2011 - 10:06 AM

First of all the web site needs more information. How to's and sorting accessories specific to a model. For instance I want a water tight bag that fits my Manta Ray. I got an answer here, but I'd think it would be nice if they told me and maybe showed me what it would look like. No dealers carry accessories around here for me to see for myself. On the Manta I'd like to see more handles or at least manufactured areas where they can be cleanly mounted. I'm loading mine on top of a Silverado. On the roof. It's a son of a gun man handling it by myself. My reach is short so there's nothing for me to grab. A higher quality caster material and a lock would help. I've only rolled this kayak up and down one boat ramp one time (about 200' total) and the caster looks really tough. Speaking of casters what about a quick release double caster mounted in the same area that would serve as a cart. I can only roll my Manta level if its empty. A small cooler, tackle bag and rod makes it want to tip, scraping the hull. This would be an easily designed accessory.

#13 CB750

CB750

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 10 September 2011 - 09:56 AM

I have been Kayak fishing for over 12 years and last week I upgraded to an Ultimate 12. I have to say I really love my new boat. One of the things I have been looking at is the addition of a trolley anchor system and have been looking for different ways to attach the system as I would prefer not to have to drill holes in my hull. I came up with the thought that attaching a trolley system that would use the “Adapt – A – Trak” would be an wonderful use for that feature. All that would be required is hardware that would slip into the tack with a means to tighten it to the track. It would offer many advantages to the angler: No drilling into your hull Ability to change the positions of the pulleys fore and aft Ability to easily change the trolley to either side of the boat Easy to remove all of the trolley hardware in less than a minute.

#14 livelybaits

livelybaits

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,540 posts

Posted 10 September 2011 - 06:35 PM

Drill the holes and use a marine grade sealant. I would not want to exert anything on the adapt-a-trak to the kind of force that the sliding of the trolley rope would exert. Drilling holes isn't a bad thing. Not having any sealant is a bad thing although I honestly doubt with the placement of my pad eyes for my trolley system that it would lead to taking on much water. As far as lack of info on their web site, there are things that are planned that will be informational items for the owners. But there is this site. This site is the best consumer support site in the industry. If it doesn't exist here, start a topic on it and you'll get the info. If you know of Native owners who are having problems did you tell them about this site? I don't care: Give them my email address or phone number. Whatever gets it done. My way won't be the only option which is why this forum is so valuable. I learn things every time there is a new topic discussed. It doesn't necessarily mean I'll change anything I do but I pay attention to what works for other people. The theme is that everyone's input is valuable but just like some of my ideas that won't ever be used by Native, some of yours will be heard but not necessarily implemented. Some will. The team at Native is all about reviewing information that is channeled back to them. The search feature on this site is great. If you have something you're interested in getting an answer, try that first and if there is already a topic resurrect it. Your comments or new questions on an existing topic adds to the value of this site. Neil

#15 silverback13

silverback13

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 229 posts

Posted 16 September 2011 - 09:34 PM

i love my ultimate 14.5 the only things that i could say to help the boat would be first of all some sort of keel guard or one of those trow away keels so when you wear it out you just have to bolt on a new block. rear groove tracks would also be nice. i wish native would make a short yak (12 feet or less) sit on top that had a capacity of around 500lbs that has a flat deck open deck like a magic for standing. i would also love a ultimate 14.5 in tigres i know it would be expensive but worth every penny

#16 jediangler

jediangler

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 503 posts

Posted 19 September 2011 - 08:44 PM

I second silverback's request for a Tegris 14.5. I have been loving my Tegris 12 for the last three years and a larger option for bigger water or to bring the kid, dog or maybe even the wife along woud be awesome.

#17 Chris Pearce

Chris Pearce

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 51 posts

Posted 20 September 2011 - 04:25 PM

Mariner 12.5 Design a cart for the stern of the kayak, so one does not have to lift the bow to install the current multisport cart and risk damaging the rudder. Also, some replaceable skids on the back would be nice, maybe one on the bow nose to, depending how someone loads it for transport. This is a heavy boat, so some thought needs to be made for real world transporting. Currently, this is the only issue I have. I suggest a new cart for the Mariner's stern (Possibly one that uses the native cart base, but with a different mold that forms to the rear of the Mariner kayak, vs the multisport hole.) I have not met a Mariner owner yet, that does not see the need for something to be done with this issue of damaging the rudder. The rudder doesn't like concrete boat ramps or parking lots. Lets face it, by design the Mariner doesn't want to be raised by the bow to install a cart.

#18 Cpt. Nemo

Cpt. Nemo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 32 posts

Posted 23 September 2011 - 09:42 AM

Where to begin. For the NAtive Ultimate 14.5. My first and most important request, is for a D-ring attachment in the front and the rear of the boat. This would be used to attach float bags in the fore and aft of the boat. This will make getting in the ocean or large wake less scary. You have to have the D-rings though to hold the float bags in. By doing this you open the Ultimate up to larger water and take care of the swamping people worry about. These float bags will need to also be accessible to their interiors as to store things as well, a mix of float bag and storage. I can provide designs in Auto-cad if needed for all the above mentioned. Next big improvement I would like to see is a remake for the 14.5 tandem's solo configuration. the foam pads offer many complaints. They begin to degrade and chum up over time, they are noisy and quite honestly don't follow form and function rules of design and were not designed to last. I propose that you all sell an aftermarket fiberglass insert that can be bolted or quick release attached that provides a solid sturdy hold to the seat that stays in place. Another thing I wold like to see is, a mountable floor plate that will accept the bottom of the mast for a sail rig and also attaches to the fore thwart tube. I do a lot of 5-6 hour open water paddling in my Ultimate on large water and she isn't the fastest kayak. a Sail would open new doors of distance and save my shoulder so I can fish and paddle into my later years. I can provide drawings for this as well. Your current sail for the pedal drive systems will work with a mounted floor adaptor. Scrap the bow floatation foam and instead make a waterproof lockable storage hatch. The seat which is the greatest in the world needs one small tweak the vertical seatback adjustment strap the way it is sewn into the side of the seatback material is inadequate, three times now I have had to reinforce the factory sewing. I believe this could be rethought and corrected by creating a mechanical attachment for those straps on both sides of the seatback. Even if none of these things are corrected you all still make the boat that I would choose over and over. alot of these items I have either corrected allready or I am in the process of making. I believe though that with a facility such as you all have these things could be made better and more adaptive with a professional look. KEep up the good work and I look forward to all future products you all produce. Thank you.

#19 Surubi

Surubi

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 18 posts

Posted 23 September 2011 - 05:12 PM

I would agree 100percent with your propel manta ray concept. I currently have a u12 and have enjoyed the versatility of having the propel, not only for fishing but as a workout when the fishing is slow.

#20 silverback13

silverback13

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 229 posts

Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:09 AM

bring back the magic or a newer version of if keep the seat and the open deck maybey make a larger hatch in the front but bring it back it was a great boat and many people miss it.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users